“If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian.” - Paul McCartney
“The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man.” - Charles Darwin
”Wild animals never kill for sport. Man is the only one to whom the torture and death of his fellow creatures is amusing in itself.” - James A. Froude (1818-1894)
“I am not systematic at all when it comes to religion. I just love life. And I’m not judgmental. And I’m a vegetarian.” - Erykah Badu
“I’m a vegetarian - I think there’s a strong possibility, had I not become a vegetarian, I would not be working now. I became a vegetarian about 25 years ago, and I did it out of concern for animals. But I immediately began having more energy and feeling better.” - Bob Barker
“I’ve been a vegetarian for years and years. I’m not judgemental about others who aren’t, I just feel I cannot eat or wear living creatures.” - Drew Barrymore
“Intellectually, human beings and animals may be different, but it’s pretty obvious that animals have a rich emotional life and that they feel joy and pain. It’s easy to forget the connection between a hamburger and the cow it came from. But I forced myself to acknowledge the fact that every time I ate a hamburger, a cow had ceased to breathe and moo and walk around.” - Moby
“I think there’s something odd about eating another living anything.” - Shania Twain
Tags: 155 Comments
155 responses so far ↓
I love how self-righteous vegetarians can be.
Yea… we’re just horribly cocky.
It’s truly bizarre that non-vegetarians can convince themselves that non-humans have no feelings.
@ bung
If a mathematician claimed that 1+1 equals 2 would you call him self-righteous or just plain right?
Well. I LOVE meat! I don’t care about an animal’s feelings when it comes to eating meat. An alligator/bear/tiger/lion/pig/shark etc., would as soon eat us as it would another animal. Do you believe they’re worried about our lives or feelings? Go ahead now and tell me that most animals only attack when we invade or destroy their environment. Now they own property too? Where’s the deed?!
Animals only attack if we invade or destroy their environment. There.
why is there such controversy over who choses to eat meat and who choses not to. the opinons vegetarians/vegans state aren’t vulgar, so WTF? haha. man people need to learn to be less sensitive, what’s so bad about feeling for another being who can’t speak for themselves? what’s with meat eaters getting so offended? what makes people care?
@ Horatio
if you don’t feel guilty why justify your cause?
deeds are a human creation; do you think animals living in a forest or jungle go to court and get a restraining order when they’re “property” is invaded? they do what they do because they have too, we have the power to think, process, solve. obviously all that animal protein is clogging the blood vessels in your brain that have to do with processing.
OK so Cows have feelings? Really? They are sentient beings? You really believe that, do you? wow
I am a new vegetarian, but I always cringe when people comment about not wanting to eat “another living thing”.
Um, some basic biology here: Plants are living things, just like animals.
Even hardcore vegans eat other living things. Everyone eats other living things.
These people keep saying, “I can not eat another living thing”, but what they do not realize is that plants are also living things. So, if this knowledge was brought to their attention, do you think they would cease to eat? No, they wouldn’t.
I do not believe in killing an animal for sport, but to eat and sustain life is fine. There are more humane ways of providing this meat for humans and that should be the focus of their activism. Not simply refraining from eating meat which nourishes our bodies in a good way.
I became a vegetarian just over a year ago and I enjoy the lifestyle. At first I was an evangelist of sorts for the cause, but as a reformed meat eater, I know how difficult it is to think of that steak on the BBQ as a living, breathing animal.
I have since decided that my motivation for becoming a vegetarian is more about the environment than the love of animals. We destroy so much natural habitat and pollute so much precious fresh water simply to raise animals for slaughter. While I do care about the suffering of animals, and I wish that there could be more humane ways to process and dispatch them, meat will always be a staple of the North American diet for many many years to come. If you want a reason to go veg, or at least to significantly reduce animal protein consumption, then do it for our struggling planet.
Hmmm…it would seem that I am still evangelising!
Save our planet…eat less meat.
Vegetarians are probably no more self-righteous than people who believe that democracy is the best form of governance or that cheese works really well on toast. The main difference is the depth of feeling and the level of reasoned argument that back up the opinion. That being said, I wouldn’t want to generalise about vegetarians (of whom there are millions all with different minds) or people who like cheese on toast (who are are probably quite numerous too).
@ Horatio
Yes, animals may attack us unprovoked and not care for our well-being or whatever else you need to justify your heartlessness, but the difference between us and animals is that we’re sentient and have the ability to take other creatures into consideration. Animals lead rich lives, feel pain and joy, and have a right to live just as we do. The main difference is that we needlessly and thoughtlessly destroy them, while they would only attack us out of necessity. Also, we have the mental capacity to see how damaging it is to consume meat, so we avoid further destruction. Well, some of us are smart enough to catch on to that, anyway. You don’t not eat meat just for the animals either. A vegetarian lifestyle benefits humans, too. Just the amount of the rain forest destroyed for cattle farming should be a good representation of that.
I would like to point out that Drew Barrymore is no longer a vegetarian.
Also I’ve found that meat eaters who feel threatened by the vegetarian idea have never encountered a vegetarian. It’s kind of like the homophobic guy who says they hate gays because they don’t like getting hit on by someone of the same sex, when in reality that has never happened. Ignorance can be bliss, but it can also be destructive.
Animals as sentient creatures are capable of great suffering, perhaps even more than human beings in certain species. Vegetarianism is an attempt to reduce this kind of suffering in the world.
If you love and respect life and want to help create the conditions under which it will flourish then being a vegetarian is a noble and worthy life choice.
@ Josh
I did not know that about Drew. I wonder what happened there. I very much enjoy the comparison to a homophobic guy Josh. hehe
@ Adalie
I am definitely not a vegetarian for one single reason either. The lifestyle is loaded with benefits.
@ Dave
I’m all about the uncheese myself.
@ Craig
You are one of what I am sure is a decent percentage of vegetarians who are in it mainly for our planet, and there is definitely nothing wrong with that.
@ Sarah
I’m sure we all know that plants are alive. I’m also sure most of us believe that meat does NOT nourish our bodies in a good way.
@ Batlbot
Yup
@ orientalnoodlesandsoupmix
I wish they could take them to court.
@ Alex
That self-righteous bastard!
@ Self Righteous Veg
Yep, I guess we are the only ones with brains and nerve endings.
I’ve been a vegetarian for about two years now and I’ve learned three things.
Meat eaters can be assholes about what you eat
Vegetarians tend to be even bigger assholes about it.
Everyone is an asshole to some extent.
Man, let’s get this straight. I don’t give a damn what you eat…I just can’t stand vegetarian’s attitudes towards carnivores! I’m not threatened by your thoughts or your view of life. It’s just that many vegetarians come off worse than Right-Wing Christians when it comes to being a vegan! There’s nothing you can say nor do to change MY mind about eating meat. I love hamburgers, steaks, chicken, fish, and other seafood. If God didn’t want us to eat them he wouldn’t have made them taste so damn good! LOL! Animals can suffer more than humans? Now that’s some b.s.! I’m done with this blog. Enjoy your food whatever it is you eat! Just don’t preach! Please, it’s boring!
I don’t eat animals because they don’t offend me like people do. Some guy on the street might mug me, some goat may do a goat roar at me.
All fear the mighty goat roar.
Look Horatio, animals might not have the ability to tell you “Gee, I’m feeling kinda depressed” or “god, what is that big knife for?” but that does not mean they’re any less scared then we are.
They might not see their life flash before their eyes, think about ma & pa goat, and their sons and daughters, but that does not mean they’re senseless.
Basically, we don’t need meat to survive, so killing so much animals just “because it tastes nice” is really one of the most idiotic, and most common, response I’ve heard so far…
We also shouldn’t forget, if everyone in the world became a vegetarian, everyone could be fed. It takes a lot more energy to get a pound of meat on your table then, say, anything plant-based.
You look Skerit and the rest of you preachin’ vegans…you guys just don’t get it. I try to leave this site and say my peace, but as usual certain vegans have this condescending attitude towards other people just because they don’t want to stop eating meat! You feel I’m an idiot because I like to eat meat that tastes good and in proper consumption can be beneficial for me? Hmmm, now isn’t that a common response from a vegan? Why do you feel the need to attack carnivores to justify your cause? I never personally attacked any of you, I stated my ideas! If you don’t agree, fine! Can we agree to disagree?! But NO, you HAVE to be right! You will always be outnumbered and until you can convince companies, restaurants, grocery stores, and ranchers that vegetables can be as profitable as meat products…you’ll never be the majority! Now, I’m gonna go grill me a lean rib-eye, and fry some shrimp w/garlic in olive oil with a nice garden salad with fat free Italian dressing!! Mmmhmm…tastes so gooood!
Horatio,
“If God didn’t want us to eat them he wouldn’t have made them taste so damn good!”
You could use the “If God didn’t want (blah blah) then why would he (blah blah)?” line for just about anything. If God didn’t want sin why would he have given us free will? If God didn’t want us to kill why would he have given man the ability to create weapons? So on and so on.
Also, God is not the one who cooks, marinates, and adds things to the meat to make it taste the way it does; people do those things. Going outside and eating a dead animal on the side of road would most likely NOT taste good. Therefore, animals naturally do not taste good.
And I agree with everything Skerit said. Especially the part about everyone being able to be fed if no one ate meat. If nothing else, caring for the well-being of humans around the world who go days without eating should motivate you to give up the meat that you eat simply because you like the way it tastes or you think that it’s really good for you.
Proven fact: you DO NOT need meat to sustain you.
Proven fact: innocent people die every day simply because they have nothing to eat.
Don’t be so ignorant. Not eating meat will not cause your death. In fact, it will help you live a healthier and longer life.
I don’t ever expect that some day EVERYONE will be a vegetarian or a vegan; I just want people to know the truth about what could happen if they give it up.
not everyone who becomes a vegetarian does so to save animals. i became a vegetarian because my wife is one and it is just easier this way. do i think animals are being saved because i am a vegetarian, no way. to each his own, veg or non-veg eat what you want. i will never eat meat again but i never preach to others to become a vegetarian i only tell people who ask that it is not difficult at all. just one question what the heck is up with pescetarians? dude, fish is an animal so saying you are a vegetarian who eats fish is an oxymoron.
Lauren, like I said…it’s a free world. Especially as an American…I can believe what I want and eat what I like…rotten vegetables in a garbage can don’t taste good either! And to let you know, you don’t have to add any type of flavor to meat to make it tasty. Like I said, you vegans sit on this imaginary high horse preaching save the animals, be healthier, but you know what? I haven’t seen one scientific study that says eating only vegetables will prolong your life! To call me ignorant shows your typical vegan arrogance…believe me I’m far from it. I can at least sit here and have a discussion without labeling someone ignorant, idiotic, or closed minded! So eat your veggies, I’ll eat my veggies, with my steak, shrimp, lobster, etc.! Don’t hate! Just go away quietly!
So before you spew your so called facts, take the time to really check your stats!
http://www.westonaprice.org/mythstruths/mtvegetarianism.html#1
And if you don’t believe the information on the westonaprice.org site, let me know I have plenty of other informational sites you can feast your eyes on! Ya know since I’m so ignorant I have to keep feeding my mind!
“Myth #1: Meat consumption contributes to famine and depletes the Earth’s natural resources.” - westonaprice.org
I suppose it is not so much the consumption.. but it is the production. They are just slightly linked to each other don’t you think?
New link please…
Read up.. http://www.virtualcentre.org/en/library/key_pub/longshad/A0701E00.pdf
Above you will find a link to a PDF version of Livestock’s Long Shadow. This was released the the UN… slightly more credible than westonaprice.org. WTF is that anyway? West on a price? I don’t get it.
SoVeg, let’s just say that we all could find data supporting our opposing views. My point is that no matter documentation is provided it’s not going to change the fact that people will always want and eat meat. If they chose to be vegans or carnivore’s, is no importance to me. The attacking of one person’s beliefs vs. another’s is pointless, after all we are both humans and we should care more about each other as people, than stress more on what they’re eating!
No more links? I guess mine is fairly impossible to beat. Veg heads win.
I’m actually reading this post you linked to. What biased lies and dribble. I highly recommend everyone wastes their time like I am and have a few laughs at westonaprice.org.
Horatio - have you noticed? The person rubbing their lifestyle in others’ faces and going out of their way to push a point of view is YOU.
The veggies have only presented their own reasons for making a lifestyle choice that really only affects themselves. And the animals they don’t eat, of course.
Ahh I see. I hit the bottom of the page and realize it’s Weston. A. Price dot org. Just thought I’d clear that up for you all.
The article was written in 2000 and revised in 2002. It’s loaded with old information, much of which is as of today, completely wrong.
Too bad someone can’t do something about old ‘educational’ posts like this one once they are proven inaccurate. Articles such as this one are misleading people like Horatio.
@ DJ, I did notice.
He must not have noticed I run this blog “For the Veg and Veg-curious”, not the Veg, Veg-curious, and Stubborn meat-eaters. Oh well..
Here’s the thing: eat meat. Just don’t overdo it and make sure it’s HALAL, which means it’s cruelty-free.
Face it: animals are made subservient to us because we humans are at the top of the FOOD CHAIN. God/Nature made it that way. Whether anyone likes it or not, that’s the way nature has constructed it. ANIMALS eat other animals…we are omnivores, as human beings. Some animals are straight-up carnivores. SO WHAT? How much does it matter that one animal was eaten by a person instead of a lion or a chicken or a buzzard or a pig?
I think the “feel-good” “save all the animals” aspect of vegetarianism is unrealistic and naive.
Sure, eat less meat. Even abstain from meat if you want to, but don’t expect everyone else to follow suit.
Would we really be on top of the food chain without our nets, traps, and weapons? It does not seem like an extremely natural rise to the top. I’m pretty sure without a gun, we’d feel pretty damn low on the food chain if we spent a little time in the jungle or on safari. Any decent predator would hands down, kick our ass.
I do understand what you are saying with this whole “feel good” “save all the animals” thing. It’s unrealistic and naive? I feel good, and by not eating meat, I do save animals. That’s just obvious.
I do not expect you to follow in our vegetarian footprints. You will obviously die an omnivore. I do expect you to stumble on and leave us alone though. Have a nice day.
@Horatio
Let’s see, there are animals that see better than we do, hear better than we do, that are stronger, faster, more agile than we are. Why is it unimaginable that some may experience pain more intensely than we do?
I am not really a proselytizer as I think vegetarianism will eventually win the argument on its own merit. But I will predict that one day mankind, or what mankind becomes, will look back at the way we treat animals today in much the same way we look back at headhunters and cannibals. Barbaric practices of a primitive people. (If you want to see the transition taking place just look at the way most people view eating dogs or horses which is still common in some countries.)
Horatio,
First of all I am not a vegan, I’m a vegetarian.
Second, I’m not preaching to anyone. I know I can’t force anyone to share the same beliefs as me, and I’m not going to try. I was only telling my opinion, which, as you say I am entitled to have and share with as many people as I like in whatever way I choose.
Third, just so you know, vegetarians do not eat only vegetables. To say that is blatantly stupid. There is a huge selection of food from which to choose that does not include veggies.
And my so-called “typical vegan arrogance”? For telling me “don’t hate” and calling me closed-minded, you seem to be the only one who is acting that way. I haven’t generalized anyone and I’m not going to. I know there are exceptions to any stereotype, and I’m not going to say that every meat-eater is an ignorant jerk, nor should anyone say that vegans/vegetarians are arrogance, self-righteous, and closed-minded.
Lastly, I never said there was a scientific study that proved ceasing to eat meat will prolong life. It is merely my personal view. Before you rag on everything I say maybe you should check your facts as well instead of quoting me wrongly.
If you don’t agree with this site’s views then why don’t YOU go away quietly?
I feel good about my choice to abstain from eating meat. I do not expect anyone who is so stubborn about their meat to ever follow suit. I don’t want to eat anything that was once alive, breathing, and walking around. I believe that animals have feelings too, and I don’t want to contribute to the cruelty.
P.S. That website you posted was full of things that could be contradicted by any website that I might choose to post. It’s the same things that any defending omnivores say when they want to “prove” vegetarians & vegans are a bunch of idiots.
I can throw websites in your face too, that doesn’t make them true.
Before I get accused of being too smug here, let me just say that I don’t think people who eat meat are bad people. Hardly, many of them are very good people.
Perhaps this example will explain how I feel. To me, Michael Vick is not a bad person. He grew up with dog fighting and never considered it as morally reprehensible. Why is he any less moral for killing dogs than the people who slaughter cows, chickens, and pigs everyday? How about people who raise veal (cut the legs off young calves, chain them in a pen and feed them a diet to make them sick and anemic). To me these acts are morally equivalent — they are all wrong. Of course the large majority of our society disagrees but I really think the vegetarian community has the more consistent and cogent argument here.
why eat meat if you can eat plants? we can survive, often better than omnivores, eating nothing but plant and fungi material. why cause a being to suffer just to please our tastebuds? i find it so upsetting when meat-eaters try in vain to justify their ways. in this day and age, there should be no option to eat meat. and please, if not for the animals, do it for yourself. your health, brothers and sisters, is priceless. dont throw it away for a steak or burger. it cannot be worth it!
For those of you who have commented a couple of times about “facts” on the prolonged effects while eating a meat-based diet you can read through a couple chapters of “The China Study- by T. Collin Campbell PHD”. Very informative and full-I mean chalked full of studies.
A very interesting conversation here. Animal rights. Cruelty. Choices on the food we eat. I for one am happy that we are discussing them instead of being silent regardless of the conflict it creates.
@ Horatio
You ignorance is truly what is wrong with America. With every post you further reveal just how much of a moron you really are. Most of us, when presented with new information, digest it, research it, process it etc. before shooting our mouth off, or before making a decision to accept it.
You should familiarize yourself with the plethora of information available online about the many reasons people become vegetarians. Personally, I’m not vegetarian. But, must admit that educating myself is sending me that direction. I want to do it for my health (do you really like eating meat pumped full of steroids and other unnatural chemicals?), for the health of the animals, for the environment and to help other animals (boycotting beef helps save America’s last herd of wild buffalo in Yellowstone).
In reality, we all should become vegetarians. There are so many reasons. Don’t let ignorance cloud your basic sense of logic.
I think if you want to eat meat then slaughter the animal yourself. I used to do this myself as part of my work till I eventually just got sick of it and couldn’t face it any longer. Just dont kid yourself it appears on a supermarket shelf or whatever by magic.
So I guess I sort of agree with the 1st quote by the ex-Beatle. And, next time youre brushing your teeth compare your choppers with your cat or dog, you might notice a difference, as in our teeth are not those of carnivores. We dont need meat to thrive.
My thinking is that humans are omnivores (we eat meat and vegetables) and hence why cut out half our diet? There are also many places where the inhabitants (humans) have no choice nutritionally but to eat meat. I believe in western culture people have the right to choose, and I don’t mind what they choose so long as the choice is respected. Don’t hate on me because you are a vegetarian and I eat meat, and I will extend the same respect.
Amazing, truly amazing how SOME vegetarians love and respect 4 legged beasts than their fellow man! Let me say this again…and again: I don’t care who eats what! What’s really puzzling is that many of you believe this unimportant subject is really something to holler about! Not many care about vegetarian ways of thinking or how you feel about people that eat meat. Now I know it’s true what’s been said about vegetarians…you can be complete assholes about your cause. Seriously! Eat whatever you choose, but don’t bash someone because they don’t buy into your way of life! I refuse to go away quietly until some of you: Lauren, Brother, Paul etc. accept the fact that you cannot bully, ridicule, bash others for their different ways of living! Period! And again…we can all pull quotes, studies, websites out of our ass about veggies vs. meat…who gives a shit…there’s much more serious issues going on in the world than to cry about what people are eating for dinner! Just thank God, that Jesus’ story of the fisherman is in the bible or your heads couldn’t fit in a blimp hanger! Ha!
SoVeg. sorry…I didn’t take the time to provide more links for you to attack. My life is really quite busy with all the meat eating and buying pallets of steaks and ribs from Costco! It’s really been an eye-opening experience stumbling upon this site. Now I know, I’ll never become a vegetarian! Thanks!
Don’t even bother trying to play that card Horatio. We all know that you will never go veg, and you never would have.
You pulled websites and inaccurate facts our of your asshole. The link I left was not from my asshole, it was from the United Nations.
The vegetarian population is rising, and eventually, you will be forced to respect their lifestyle choice. Why did you comment on my site in the first place? I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, this site is for the veg and veg-curious. Not you.
Try not to choke on that carcass. Do you believe in karma?
>>“I think there’s something odd about eating another living anything.” - Shania Twain
Uh…
Plants are living things, Shania. In fact, you HAVE to eat things that are living (or at least, were living) in order to survive. Yeah, sure, nature is odd, but do you have a better idea? Why don’t you just keep singing and being hot as hell.
Killing any animal or anyone killing on our behalf is equally sinful & harmful to ourself first & all in the chain. People need to give up (eating meat) on their own & nobody can force the choice upon them. It is a deeper spiritual science and one needs to see within for answers & meditation can answer the same.
@ Jaime
Halal doesn’t mean it’s cruelty free, it just means it’s permissible under Islamic law, and while the slaughter method may be considered ‘cruelty free’ it does not guarentee that the animal was properly cared for. The only way to ensure that the animal has been cared for is to buy ORGANIC or FREE RANGE meat and poultry.
And as far as eating meat goes, i have no problem with it so long as the meat is organic or free range, that way i know the animal was looked after properly and wasn’t factory farmed or treat cruelly in anyway
@Horatio
You are moron. who laughs on the feelings of vegetarians, and animals. You are graveyard, who is burying the dead animals inside in your body everyday.
I randamly came on this page today, and not going to bookmark it. So your moron comments will not able to read anymore. wish you happy eating and smile from all the dead animals who are sitting at your table and making a way to your stomach.
Hmmm…seems I’ve a struck a cord! SoVeg how do you know my intentions? Do vegetables now make you psychic and also capable of controlling the entire free world?
Vin? Yeah, yeah, I’m a moron and you misspell randomly.
Let’s call a truce. I never said being vegetarian was wrong. I just don’t think you should spend so much time bashing others that don’t follow or believe in your way of life.
I just refuse to give up meat or dairy products. Now if you really knew me, you’d love me!
And another thing SoVeg, that website was in the internet not out of my ass. I don’t ingest hard drives. That would be a whole new subject as far as diet is concerned!
I simply wanted to create dialog!
Yes Horatio, vegetables make me psychic…
You say I spend so much time bashing others… when did I bash? The only time I tend to bash in my articles is when it comes to hunting or other forms of animal cruelty. When an animal is murdered or beaten by some ass, he deserves a good bashing.
I do not bash meat eaters. I give them the option to read up on some facts and they make their decisions from there. I do not have super powers, and I do not expect to change the lives of millions. If I did have super powers, you would already be a turnip in the ground.
It’s called sarcasm SoVeg…we all know you don’t have super powers. So you do or you don’t bash? Which is it?
“The vegetarian population is rising, and eventually, you will be forced to respect their lifestyle choice. ” - SoVeg
I never said once that I didn’t respect your lifestyle, I feel you don’t respect meat eaters choices. I’m not here to push my lifestyle on you, I’m defending my lifestyle. You don’t want my kind of people on your site, make it private. That way you all can stroke each other’s egos!
What do I have to do to make you stop talking? Hmm, I suppose I could just stop approving your comments.
I bash cruelty, I do not bash meat eaters. I already said that you fool.
If you had any kind of common sense you’d know that making this site private would be completely foolish. This post has as of today received over 14,000 hits from stumbleupon in the last few days. That is an awful lot of people that checked off vegetarianism as one of their interests.
Yes, you could stop approving my comments, but then again that would mean you can’t stand up to someone who simply questions your cause and debates if you really understand what it would take for vegetarians to change the entire world’s outlook on meat eating. I’m the fool? You’re the fool that can’t resist retorting everything I say. It’s your site, run it as you wish, but don’t expect that I’ll sit idly by and let you spew your comments without checkin’ you. Your site is biased just as much as any other site supporting a cause. You call me ignorant and a fool. Why? Because I don’t by into your way of life? Yeah, great open mind you have!
I’ll be waiting to hear from your bleeding-heart.
love life and enjoy it as you will each individual creates their own reality and beliefs
Of course my site is biased you idiot. It is about the vegetarian lifestyle, diet, and whatever else vegetarian I want it to be about.
I have another question…seriously. Totally off the meat eating subject.
How do you feel about the use of animal skin products? Lizard skin, snake, cow, pig, alligator, etc.? What other products could we use to substitute their usage?
SoVeg, I am here to learn. I know I come off as a pompous ass, but I am here for a reason. To understand. I may not support you, but I do accept you.
SoVeg, I made the comment about being biased because you called a link I posted as biased. Catch my drift?
And chill with the name calling dude. Let’s be adult about this now!
I can’t help but think that you are being sarcastic here, but I will answer your question anyways.
Vegetarians and vegans for the most part do not support the animal skin industry. There are plenty of good looking leather alternatives out there. As far and Lizard skin, snake, pig, alligator, chinchilla, mink, dogs, cats, whatever whatever, the production of those skins and furs is completely sickening in my mind. Those types of animal products are purely for the rich and snobby.
http://soveg.com/category/fur-trade
As far as the link you sent, I called it biased because it truly was. This site is called So Veg dot com, it is for the veg and veg-curious. I am not back-dooring anyone here. My site is obviously vegetarian in nature.
No sarcasm SoVeg. We can agree to disagree, right? I understand that using animal skin for the sake of profit is wrong. I know that leather products are loaded with chemicals to delay their decomposition, but it seems that it’s a catch 22. Man-made products are also just as harmful to the environment too, right?
it’s just as wrong to eat a carrot as it is to eat a cow. they both aren’t self aware of their own existence. when you pull a carrot out of the ground, isn’t that analagous to killing a cow? in both cases you stop them from living. one by removing it from its nutrients, and another by removing it from its brain.
Did you seriously just compare a carrot to a cow? Yikes.
@ Horatio
I can’t see the production of pleather leaving even 1% of the carbon footprint that a cow leaves in it’s years on this planet before slaughter. I’m sorry but any animal product alternative is going to be far better for our planet. Even if it’s a scarf made of gasoline, bleach, and turpentine.
Humans are hunter/gatherers and opportunistic feeders. We ate what was available.
The circle of life………Without plants there would be no herbivores, without herbivores, there would be no carnivores and without any of these there would be no omnivores, which I believe is what humans are meant to be.
Everything has a purpose and whether you choose to eat meat or not you have to admit God nor evolution would have given us this brain, these thumbs, etc.. if we were not meant to be on the top of the food chain eating whatever we could find.
Now someone please pass the ribs and that yummy salad.
Humans have an advanced consciousness that allows us to progress further and beyond animals.
Animals, though their consciousness is more covered, still have the ability to feel pain, they have the ability to fear. Yes plants on a technical level also have this ability however it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that the scale is completely different. Anyone who’s spent time with practically ANY animal can easily come to an understanding that they have personality, individuality, character traits, just like us. The fact that they are not self-aware is irrelevant, neither do many disadvantaged humans.
We have the capability of reasoning and choosing our actions rather than simply obeying our bodily instinct like animals.
As an advanced species, it is our option. We can choose to exploit and dominate those below us in a violent manner (because we can), or we can choose to protect them, just as you would any less advanced human.
I treat animals like i do my younger siblings, yeah maybe push them around and make them do stuff for me every now and then, but I love them. Never in my life would i consider hurting them, let alone eating them.
I feel I have to add in here at some point because, although this discussion is interesting, there are things I have noticed about both sides (meat-eaters and veggies alike) that are either not true or need to be clarified/pointed out. I am sure to offend both sides here.
@ Horatio
“Enjoy your food whatever it is you eat! Just don’t preach! Please, it’s boring!”- Horatio
“but don’t bash someone because they don’t buy into your way of life! I refuse to go away quietly until some of you: Lauren, Brother, Paul etc. accept the fact that you cannot bully, ridicule, bash others for their different ways of living! Period!”- Horatio
You can’t possibly say either of those things followed up by…
“Now, I’m gonna go grill me a lean rib-eye, and fry some shrimp w/garlic in olive oil with a nice garden salad with fat free Italian dressing!!”
“My life is really quite busy with all the meat eating and buying pallets of steaks and ribs from Costco!” - Horatio
…and expect that you won’t incite an argument on clearly a vegetarian site. Those statements when presented in the same conversation are meant to start a fight and it would be insulting to most people here to make them believe otherwise. It’s a pro-vegetarian site and like it or not it’s SoVeg’s soapbox so you have to know what you’re in for when you post to a forum like this, and he, like others, are quite right in saying if you don’t like what’s here you don’t have to read it. On the other hand I hope you stay around otherwise it turns into less of a discussion and more of a bunch of people patting each other’s backs. And I agree with you, name-calling is not a way to have a conversation, no matter how offence the other person gets.
More to follow….
@ SoyVeg, Lauren and others who are thinking this…
“I do expect you to stumble on and leave us alone though. Have a nice day.”-SoVeg
“If you don’t agree with this site’s views then why don’t YOU go away quietly?”-Lauren
We can’t ask them (meat-eaters) to go away….we (veggies) can’t be asked to be quiet. Without discussion or forums like this to people will never have a place to understand each other or share their ideas. They would never have a place to root out inaccuracies or share truth, and most of all affect change. These conversations need to happen.
“What’s really puzzling is that many of you believe this unimportant subject is really something to holler about!”- Horatio
(this is not to centre you out again Horatio….it’s just you’ve given me great material :))
Why is this subject so important? Why is it something to holler about? Because it’s something we humans (at least the ones who are not starving themselves) are doing everyday. It’s the thing that links us together, and it’s the thing we all have in common like it or not. We eat. We must to survive and therefore what we ALL eat becomes not just something to holler about but possibly the most important thing we can try to discuss. What and how we eat can affect the world in such proportions that it’s staggering.
Why did I become a vegetarian? To defend my right to eat meat. Silly huh? I was just like good ol’ Horatio here before I became a vegetarian right down to the “I will NEVER stop eating meat” statements. I was just as tired as he of listening to arguments from veggies and decided that I couldn’t have a conversation with them anymore unless I knew more about what they were talking about. So I read, and read, and read. I read anything they wanted to argue about so that they couldn’t use the excuse that I wasn’t educated in what they were talking about. Funny thing though….the more I read, the more I understood…the more I understood the more my choice became clear to me. And now emerging on the other side of things I am surprised and happy to be a vegetarian, and I will always promote it and preach it. Why? Because I am convinced, without doubt that this lifestyle is the single best thing you can do for your health and for this planet and I will tell anyone I care about the countless reasons they should consider the change.
More to follow….
“Humans are hunter/gatherers and opportunistic feeders. We ate what was available.
The circle of life………Without plants there would be no herbivores, without herbivores, there would be no carnivores and without any of these there would be no omnivores, which I believe is what humans are meant to be.” –Dani
Again…this isn’t to single you out Dani as there are a couple of people that have made that argument. Yours was just the latest. I think before we can make clear-cut statements like this we have to consider that this is the way of evolution. The operative word here is “was” or “were”. We were at one time hunter/gathers and opportunistic feeders. Anything that wasn’t poisonous or that didn’t kill us first was fair game. But are we anymore? Do we need to hunt to survive? No, I think that’s been proven at this point….it’s not something we need to survive. So what about our nature? Teeth. Certain vitamins, nutrients etc….? True we still have remnants of a former life that required that but we all know that evolution can take tens of thousands of years to come about and it would take more than our lifetime to see that kind of change. But do we need it to make the change without evolution stepping in? No, I think we can do that before and save the step. We were “made” this way because we once lived a life that required us to be so, which I don’t believe (except for rare exceptions) is true anymore.
I have read all this and just have one comment.
Eat what you want, feel as you will, I think I am normal because I eat both meat and vegs. If all this energy was put toward something like say - getting clean water for everyone on earth to drink then I would think it would all be worth something. My son just retutrned from south Africa were they eat meat because well its there and the plants are not! They are learning to grow food but they have a Huge Problem with clean water.
So I say to everybody vegs and meat eaters - quit wasteing time on arguing and quit watering your lawns and help others in any way you can with bigger problems we here on earth have.
* Livestock production is a significant contributor to the growing lack of water, which researchers predict will be one of our main problems in the future. In many parts of the world, clean drinking water is no longer available:
* Livestock production is the largest source of water pollutants: animal wastes, antibiotics, hormones, chemicals, fertilizers and pesticides for feed crops.
* 8% of the worldwide consumption of water is used for the irrigation of feed crops.
* In the US alone, livestock and feed crop agriculture are responsible for the use of 37% of pesticides, 50% of antibiotics. They are also responsible for 33% of all nitrogen and phosphorus found in freshwater resources, and 66% of all ammonia, which is a significant contributor to acid rain and the acidification of ecosystems.
You want clean water for all? You’d better go veg. It is quite impossible to be an environmentalist and conservationist when you support the meat industry.
Africa is a prime example of what livestock production can do to our earth.
I eat meat and couldn’t care less about the animals that are slaughtered for my burgers, spare ribs, whatever, as they wouldn’t even have life if it weren’t for the fact that a human gave it to it so we could kill it and eat it!!
They’re bred for food and nothing else. Wild animals going about their natural life, fairplay, don’t touch those as they aren’t for our consumption but if we breed it, why the hell shouldn’t we cook it up and get fat off it. It’s only like growing a dam cabbage or something…. just coz it has feelings and such don’t mean jack man….. i love the way veggies go on about the animals and not the innocent humans that are getting slaughtered for an even more pointless end, someones sick pleasure and sometimes even food there too!!!
Bloody stoopid veggies!!!
Grease and Hoof
Desperate Dan
I 3Atz A1l Y0u7 K0wpi3z LoLzzzz
@ Desparate Dan
Let’s take ethics out of the picture. Let’s take slaughter out of the picture. Let’s assume that you really don’t care about the kinds of lives (and I used the term “lives” very loosely as my definition of living and the conditions factory farmed animals go through not to mention the ways in which they are dispatched are very different) of the animals you eat. And how would they know they lost something if we never created them? Or bred them as you say…the argument can go both ways.
What do you care about?
Do you care about the planet and the effects factory farming has on it? The state of erosion that takes place as a result of runoff from these operations? The sheer amount of waste it produces that has an overall greenhouse effect on the biosphere that is greater than all the cars on the planet combined? Maybe that’s too big though. You’re just one guy after all….you can’t possibly change that. Let’s go smaller, closer to home.
Do you care about the resources that are used up in comparison to producing plants instead? (the average difference being about 150 times the amount of producing meat to plants) The amount of space required to house/feed/store/distribute the production of meat including the feed it requires? How about the water used in making one pound of meat compared to one pound of plant food (almost the same as the resources)? Again, this might be too big for you…and again maybe to far away from what and where you think you can affect change. How about something more direct, like from your statements:
“… i love the way veggies go on about the animals and not the innocent humans that are getting slaughtered for an even more pointless end, someones sick pleasure and sometimes even food there too!!!”
I think you have to ask why these people are dying. War? That would be true if you are talking about slaughter. What causes war? Many things, but mainly religion or the quest for resources. What resources are the most important on this planet? Gold? Silver? No…a lot of wars started on a quest for resources are things we use every day. What are those? Land for food, housing, mining, logging. Oil reserves as well. What are the things we use almost everyday no matter what? Oil and Food. What are these people getting slaughtered for again then?
About those people. Do you know how many people loose their right to clean drinking water because of factory farming? Do you know how many of them loose their rights to the land they live on? The diseases they can get from working in slaughterhouses; of the incredible amount of accidents that happen in slaughterhouses causing death and dismemberment for the production of meat? Again you might think this is too far away from your sphere of influence….or maybe you don’t care about them either. I dunno. That’s ok. I get that, it’s hard to visualize something you have never seen or maybe don’t know about. Let’s take this back to you.
Maybe you care about your health. Surely you must at least care about that. Do you know how many kinds cancers affect the North American population that are linked to eating a diet heavy in animal based protein? Do you know how many diseases directly affect you and your family that can be prevented simply by eating less meat?
These are all very hard questions to ask and to think about, but to ignore them is almost as dangerous. We can’t simply sit on our laurels anymore and state we want to do something (especially on a site like this) and not expect someone to answer, or even to stand up. I was there once, just like you. Just as “stamp-my-foot” ish, but at the very least we have to pretend to know what’s happening when we state a decision we are making is 100% valid.
Very well written Jynax. Those beans are officially spilled. I really hope he comes back to read that comment. If you’d like I can be sure he receives it by sending it within an email. Just let me know. You put plenty of thought into it, and I’d hate for him to miss out.
Jynax (Michael) runs an great blog over at Spilling My Beans dot com. Mr. SoVeg thinks you should check it out.
Feel free to pass it along.
@Jynax,
I understand your and SoVeg’s points and I can accept them. I don’t eat steak every dang day. Seafood plays part of my diet, being half Asian and all. I know that too much red meat and pork and chicken can harmful for anyone. I believe that too much of anything can be harmful. I must admit that many of my first comments posted were said to create a confrontation. I believe when someone speaks with passion about what they support I can better understand it and it creates a more open and fierce dialog. No dancing around, no putting it lightly. I’m really not an ignorant person, I just play one on the net.
I don’t support hunting for sport, I would never buy a fur, I would never attend a dog/rooster/any animal fight (other than humans), I don’t buy exotic skins or leathers simply for stating my class status. “A man has got to know his limitations.”
This is something very fundamental….don’t oversimplify by saying plants are also living things. What makes humans different from animals? Superior intelligence. The ability to understand better and have more complicated emotions such as empathy. Because of that are ignorant actions are far more “unpardonable” (for want of a better word) than a hungry lion hunting down a prey. It is also true that we have so many options when its comes to food other than meat. Every living being has a right to live, they have a nervous systems therefore they feel pain. They fear for their lives as much as we do when in danger. Animals sense danger in fact more acutely than humans. I for one dont want to be responsible for causing this much pain or fear to another living being just so i can fill my stomach.
Nice post, bookmark it
You lot are laughable to be honest….. you’re as bad as non-smokers and the rest of the goodie goodie patrol. You can keep banging on about the things you can’t change or keep taking the moral high ground but the fact of the matter is, we are meat eaters and thats just life. We have always killed animals for food and always will, just because a bunch of pansies want to say nay to it all doesn’t mean diddly to me.
How many of you smoke, or indeed how many of you drive a car…. most of you i imagine, so stop pretending to have some sort of good will towards the Earth when you’re all just bloody hypocrites. You’re all sitting here on the dam internet using electricity that is created by huge great power stations pumping out all sorts of crap into the atmosphere and you’re worrying about some bloody animals that are bred in controlled environments, not depleting the Earths resource of livestock and feeding HUMAN BEINGS to keep HUMAN BEINGS alive.
Everything that is said on this board is either highly hypocritical or created by personal taste or opinion NOT necessity to the well being of the world, so stop waiting for people like me to come along so you can try to flame us for OUR OPINION.
Funny how people that believe they are doing good for the world always get so far up their own arse that they feel superior to others and feel the need to be 2 faced in their attitudes to those with a different opinion.
Example:
In my email from Mr SoVeg the opening line is
“I assume you spit your s**t, and will not be back to SoVeg.com, so here is the comment that followed your’s. Just a little something to chew on from Jynax..”
How very presumptuous of you and also quite rude, “spit my s**t” you child. Assuming that i wouldn’t be back and that i posted just to troll…. no mate, i don’t troll and i always back up my posts after the justice league have been in to kick me when i’m down.
Rude and presumptuous in the mail you sent me… calm and diplomatic on here….. 2 faced!!!
Have a great life all, i’m off for a kebab!!!
Whats the betting this post doesn’t even make it to press.
PS: Mr SoVeg, maybe look into your grammar before trying to save the world!!! There’s no apostrophe in yours.
Vegetarian Celeb Drew Barrymore Quote
nice post, chris. and what is this b.s. about drew not being a veggie anymore. she is.
Since we are playing english class… “we are meat eaters and thats just life.”
Your are missing an an apostrophe. —Correction - THAT’S
“Whats the betting this post doesn’t even make it to press.”
Geezzz.. another missing apostrophe. —Correction - WHAT’S
You also forgot to capitalize a few of your “I’s”
Give it a break dude.
You come on to my vegetarian blog and say, “Bloody stoopid veggies!!!”
You accuse me of being childish? You came here looking to start a fight. Don’t spit on vegetarian beliefs and not expect me to accuse you of spitting your s**t. You did.
Why are you comparing vegetarians to smokers… I really don’t know…
FYI, a vegan can drive a hummer and have a fraction of the the carbon footprint of a meat eater driving a hybrid. Don’t call us hypocrites when you have no idea what you are talking about. We are doing something, and you are doing nothing.
So Drew is still a veg head? I can still dream about her? <3
I would much rather be doing nothing than wasting my life trying to right a wrong that is so beyond your power, that it’s just something to make you feel better about yourselves. You ask why i compare you to smokers…. well, if you read your own post correctly, you would see that you’re banging on about us meat eaters doing the planet damage due to the way that our meat is processed but people who smoke, drive, watch telly, use the internet, cook, clean, LIVE IN A HOUSE FOR CHRIST SAKE….. anything you do these days contributes greatly to the crap being pumped into the air and damaging the Earth so for you to try and convince yourselves (and more so people like myself) that all this is going to do so much good for the world is bollocks…. it’s just making small people like yourselves, with no actual purpose in life, to feel like you’re actually doing something worthwhile.
Why don’t you all go out and get a life, start thinking of your fellow man and just go with the flow of the natural world. This is a planet and it will end it’s life naturally in its own time, it won’t last a few years more just because you stop a few hundred people from eating meat will it??
And finally, i didn’t come one here to start a fight, i stumbled across this ridiculous page by accident but i thought i’d have my 2p’s worth as it is a public forum and it was just my opinion, no matter how i put it across. For you to accuse me of fighting with you only says to me even more now, that people like you are stuck so far up your own arses that you have a superiority complex like no other. You shout the odds about a certain subject in which you believe passionately but as soon as someone opposes that belief, you start to try and take me down with clever sentences and words… basically going on the defensive and not taking my opinion seriously.
So to sum it up…. you are a little person in a little part of the world, who created a web page on the internet that is using power made by some dirty beast of a power station (hence producing a nasty amount of pollution), to gripe on about a problem that is insignificant by comparison to the effects that almost everything else in the world. You’re as bad as the rest of us mate, you’re not doing the world any favours, you’re just wasting your life trying to be a goodie goodie.
How much does it cost to keep this page running and how much do you get in return?? You’re paying to pollute the world over another issue that is polluting the world, that’s clever!!! Oh but wait, because you believe in this issue, that justifies it!!!!
You’re all ridiculous and people like you make me sick… just accept the world is going to die at some point, nothing you can do is going to stop that and get on with enjoying life instead of worrying about what others are doin all the time….. i mean, just because i eat meat, does that really have an affect on you??
Finally, i pedantically picked at your posts spelling mistake because i knew you were the type to create something out of that and guess what… you did, snapping back at that because there is no real argument in what you have to say to me on my opinions. And for the second time, i didn’t “spit my shit”, that would suggest (in the way you put it) that i shit myself and wouldn’t be coming back to follow up my opinion on this public blog… which i did!!!!
LOSERS!!!
Change is not beyond the power of humanity. You truly do not understand how much of an effect the meat industry has on the planet, and how easy it is to get us out of this death spiral.
“The production of greenhouse gases of human origin, that are generated by livestock production is higher than EMISSIONS CAUSED BY ALL WORLDWIDE MEANS OF TRANSPORTATION.” - Livestock’s Long Shadow
You got me, my computer is powered by electricity. Gonna go cry now…
Back now… believe it or not, it does not cost very much to own and run websites. No this one is not profitable… do you think I really care? It was never meant to be. Yeah.. I pay to pollute the world…
What are you talking about the world dying for? It will kill us all off long before it dies. It’s been around for billions of years (unless you believe it was created in 7 days). It will bounce back.
Dude, this is a public blog, and you have the right to your opinion. In your first post though, you called us “Bloody stoopid veggies”, and that was just you being an idiot.
First off I want to thank Jynax for being one of the most well-spoken (or written) people I’ve ever encountered, and for making the most sense out of anyone who has commented on this page. No joke.
Next I want to address Dan.
If you haven’t noticed, not a single person here has tried to force their beliefs on anyone, nor had they personally offended you before you did that to them. Stating your opinion is not being preachy, and if you don’t think you should have to defend your dietary habits, why do you?
Why do you assume that we are all hypocrites? Why do you assume that we all smoke and drive cars that emit pollution? I neither smoke nor drive my own car; I take the bus. I’m sure not everyone here drives their own car or smokes and it is inaccurate to say so, since you don’t know anyone here personally.
This is not to say that every person here is a saint and isn’t doing anything to harm the earth. Even by turning on the lights you are harming it; however, no one said anything about being better than all meat eaters or that we don’t do anything to contribute to Global Warming. We know we do. But no one can just stop doing everything they do because it hurts the earth. You could compare it to our “sin nature” if you want.
Like SoVeg said, change is not beyond the power of humanity. We can change some things about ourselves that we know are harmful to others or the world (like eating meat), but we can’t change everything. Calling us hypocrites is incorrect.
Also, I just can’t understand why you would say something like “it’s just making small people like yourselves, with no actual purpose in life, to feel like you’re actually doing something worthwhile.”
Every person has a purpose in life, whether it is to be a garbage man, a homemaker, or a missionary. To us, the things we are fighting for are worthwhile. Maybe you don’t care about a single living creature other than yourself, but we do. To basically tell us that we are small and don’t matter is rude and hurtful. You are not the authority on who/what matters and who/what doesn’t. You have no right to say things like that, no matter free speech. Everyone has the right to state their opinions, but to do it in a hurtful, crude, offensive way is wrong. If you want someone to listen to your opinion and take it seriously then you had better think of a new approach. When you tell someone straight up that their beliefs are wrong or stupid then they will not care about what you have to say or even take it into account.
“Injustice, poverty, slavery, ignorance - these may be cured by reform or revolution. But men do not live only by fighting evils. They live by positive goals, individual and collective, a vast variety of them, seldom predictable, at times incompatible.”
–Isaiah Berlin
There have been countless people throughout the ages that have had resisted major changes in societies but societies can change and we have, if we had not we would be living in a world without as many choices.
Imagine a world where slavery was still commonly accepted, where one person’s basic rights were taken from them simply based on the colour of their skin. Imagine a world where women were not able to participate in anything outside of the home (which they were trussed-up in for centuries) simply because of their gender. Imagine a world where a majority of the population (for a time) believed it was flat. None of these things would have changed if we had just sat back and said that “it’s the way it is….it has always been like that…we will always do that….we will never change”. I have to believe we can change and if that makes me a fool in someone else’s eyes then so be it.
It’s not fair to make sweeping generalizations about people without knowing them. Do all veggies live in bubble houses, in the middle of nowhere with a “zero-footprint” and powering their little internet forums off the power of the sun? Are all meat-eaters HumVee driving, smoking, war-crazed maniacs out to rule and destroy the world as we know it? No, both assumptions are wrong and unfair because no one person is exactly like another.
Are there meat-eaters out there making a difference in the world, saving trees and donating time and money to worthy causes for the planet? You betcha. Are there veggies out there smoking, driving the biggest vehicles they can find, and living in houses with an air-conditioner for each room? You betcha. But we can’t say that all meat-eaters or all veggies are the same.
It wasn’t my intention to become a vegetarian. I was raised to think that eating a meat-based diet was normal and I wanted to defend that. I had gotten booed enough times in conversations with vegetarians in the past to realize that I needed to be more educated in food before I could make more claims of my own with solid backup. Somewhere along the way though, I learned things about the food industry and Western eating habits that I couldn’t ignore, and I would encourage anyone who thinks they know all they need to know about food to pick up a book on the subject and read. You will find the answer is never as black and white as you would like it to be.
I thought this site would be helpful to people who have questions.
http://www.vegforlife.org/faqs.htm
Also, I posted a comment earlier & I’m not sure why it isn’t there anymore.
?
@ Lauren and Jynax
Thanks again for you input guys. I’m really enjoying hearing what everyone has to say. Well.. for the most part. Lauren, what comment is missing? There appears to be a few there from you and it doesn’t seem like it ended up in the spam pile. Are you sure it is missing?
I like this site.
But anyways, seriously, all you meat-eaters on here, what do you expect seeing how this is a vegetarian website? Yes, I am a vegetarian, but haven’t been for all my life. I agree, there are some semi-decent reason on why you should eat meat, yes it’s true there are extra cows breed for our purposes, so it’s not like we are killing off the population. But it’s just plain cruel. Like others have mentioned, people find things like eating dogs and cats barbaric, so why is it any different with cows and pigs just because there are extra ones?
I don’t like preaching, I don’t like arguing, I don’t like basking people or anything, I just think more people need to listen to our cause and open their minds.
No it’s not missing. I must have skipped over it somehow. Sorry. :/
Wonder what Shania eats if she doesn’t eat anything that was ever living. Rocks maybe?
None of these particular quotes seem “self-righteous” to me. They seem very thoughtful and well intended.
I still eat some meat due to my upbringing but there really appears be a good deal of truth and intelligence in not cannibalizing other living creatures.
I am pescetarian, which means I eat dairy, eggs, and seafood. I was laco-ovo for a couple years but switched over to eating fish because I was getting sick a lot. Finding sources of protein as a vegetarian can be difficult. But I eat fish sparingly…I mostly eat beans for protein.
What made me switch over to a vegetarian diet was a book by John Robbins called Diet for a New America in which Robbins advocates a plant-based vegan diet. It didn’t turn me into a radical vegan. It simply opened my eyes to the unpalatable ways the dairy and meatpacking industry operates using high levels of pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. People should be educated about how their food goes from the farm to the table.
By the way, celebrities are the worst advocates for vegetarianism. They try to sensationalize a lifestyle that is definitely not glamorous.
I think self-righteous is EXACTLY the right word for vegetarians. My sister-in -law is a vegetarian–but she has no problem what-so-ever with the animals that died to make her leather, alligator, etc. shoes, jackets and purses, the seats in her two cars or the fur trim on several clothing items she owns or her angora sweaters. But I am a bad person because I actually advocate using the whole cow and not just it’s skin? RIGHT?
Out of respect I have never pressured her to eat meat and have always made sure when she visited me the menu included all or mostly all dishes that were meat free, and in cases where it was mostly it was always the entree and I made a special one just for her. For the first thanksgiving after she joined my brother I went to six stores in three cities in two states to find a nice soy turkey breast and vegetarian gravy especially for her. She has repeatedly tried to serve me those idiotic fake meats that “taste just like” chicken, turkey, beef, bacon, et al ad nauseum. So she has failed to show me the same respect I have shown her and she justifies it by saying that vegetarian is “better.” No. You are wrong. It is not better–it is just different.
Most meat eaters will not force meat on you and you are VERY rude and VERY wrong to force your vegetarianism on us. I am tired of being treated disrespectfully by people I have always been respectful of and I will no longer tolerate it. The vegetarians I know ARE judgmental hypocrites.
waif is another good example. More often or not a vegetarian wants to FORCE his/her preferences on others. (see post #39) I would be flamed out of existence if I said that vegetarianism should not be an option in this day and age when vegans are STARVING THEIR BABIES TO DEATH. So I don’t. I bend over backwards to make sure I never suggest my sister-in-law try meat. (She has been a vegetarian all her life.) I put forth 110% to make sure that when I host her for dinner she can eat what the rest of us eat. If my reference offended, then we are even. waif’s suggestion that my lifestyle is less valid that his/hers should have been pointed out to him/her by you, if you were as fair as you try to seem.
When I wrote the previous post I was not angry, but I had missed waif’s post. Now I am.
“wasting my life trying to right a wrong that is so beyond your power”
hm so firstly you admit it is something wrong, secondly you are one of those ppl who prefer to do nothing about it. Thats fine. What you dont understand is ppl here are vegetarian bcos they truly feel for another living being. Is that so hard to understand? You dont think an animal will struggle with terror for its life when taken to be killed? For some that knowledge is enough to be vegetarian. I myself dont bother to tell ppl what to eat, its a personal choice. I do my part for myself and for another life by simply being vegetariain. Its like u cant teach someone how to think, they have to understand themselves. Its like the fish in the sea asking the tortoise what the land is like..is it wavy and deep etc all in relation to its own world. Why are u writing paragraphs and paragraphs of senseless ramble? This is clearly not a place for you? why then DO you waste ur time here writing things of complete irrelevence and getting ur blood all boiled?
@Pjay-
I’m sorry you have had such a bad experience with a vegetarian (and your sister-in-law to boot). That’s just no fun. ((I would also like to say that I will try, where possible, to make my replies to people in as general a way as I can because, although these are very personal issues (eating is about as personal as it gets), I think they can address more than one person’s thinking/questions.))
There are vegetarians out there that just give the rest of us a bad name and that’s too bad, but like anything in life, there are people who are willing to open their mouths and say something in defensive of a cause they feel is right which makes others who believe in the principle of that cause hide their collective heads in shame. There are people out there that feel they need to strike out at others with anger and vengeance that I don’t care to associate myself with and would never agree with either. But there are a lot that don’t.
I can’t tell you the amount of times I would have someone (before I stopped eating meat that is) come over to my place for a meal who was a vegetarian and I went into a state of near panic. “What do I buy them? What do they eat? Should I get them some fake meat? Will they be offended if I eat meat? Damnit! All I have in the house is carrots and potatochips!” It was mad. Then I would do something very similar to what Pjay described and go out of my way to get something for them, only to have them be so utterly nonchalant about it to make my blood boil.
On the other side of the fence (as a vegetarian coming over) I faced almost the same dilemma. “Should I go over? Should I bring my own food? Will it insult them if I bring my own food? Should I suggest what they should buy for me? Is that being too picky? Damint! Being friends/family with someone shouldn’t be this hard!”
What happens after this can be a lot of things at once. Maybe the meat-eater gets offended thinking “it’s too much trouble” or “why are they forcing me to make them something vegetarian? Everyone else on this planet eats meat.” and the vegetarian thinks, “I don’t want to go over there and eat a salad but I don’t want to eat something I’m not sure doesn’t have meat in it” or “how hard can it be to seem up some extra veggies?”
We are offended. Offended at the thought of having to bend to the will of someone that doesn’t eat like us, but why that happens is really just down to understanding (or lack thereof). As a meat-eater we think that we need to have something for the person that involves a replacement of “meat” which, in most cases, is just not true. Most vegetarians are happy to have a plate of nicely cooked veggies and all the extras you would normally have at a meal with company; bread, salad and something to drink. As vegetarians we have to accept responsibility for at least letting our host know what we can eat or suggest bringing something over to help with the meal if your host is just unsure. It doesn’t take much on our part to let them know our eating preferences and make suggestions. I know that would have helped me a lot when I was serving them at my home before I stopped eating meat that is. Cooking vegetarian is not always simple.
On the other subjects mentioned by Pjay I think I will wait for another post as this one is getting long, but they are important to note as well so I will come back and make a stab (pun intended) at it.
If a man can see, beyond a fence, a tree with a fruit on it, he will be inspired to climb over the fence and up the tree to get the fruit, just as it it. If a man has a pile of raw meat at his feet, he wouldn’t dare eat it. Only after the meat has been cooked and spiced would a man have the desire to eat it, and only if he were brought up to believe it were the correct thing to do.
Well SoVeg, animals (including monkeys, otters, and birds to include herons and finches) all use tools. So yeah, human use of tools to kill prey and defend himself is valid, “hands down”. Man is the apex predator and indeed can be considered a superpredator (though I’d want some diving armor in the vicinity of a great white).
Tools they are born with? I’ve never seen an otter using a crossbow to catch fish. Monkeys have been seen cracking nuts with rocks, and catching ants with a twig, but I don’t think that compares to our use of high powered rifles and insanely powerful scopes.
Jynax:
My point is, I KNEW the answer. She EXPECTED me to find, on my own, god-forbid she tell me where to look, fake meat. She delights in the idea that she is the center of attention and someone would spend their whole day off looking for this fake turkey breast. She knew the closest place I could find one (which ironically was only 4 blocks from my house!!!!!) and knew I was the kind of person who would look for one so she would something when we all did. I REFUSE to believe she doesn’t do this for attention because if an animal is terrified of being killed for food (and I’m far from convinced he is) would he not be even less happy at the idea of being skinned to become the seats in her car? She is not concerned in the least about those animals not the ones who become her shoes, purses, jacket, or the pretty fur trim on her coat. People who feel uncomfortable and nervous, as you describe, do not pass a forkful of their dinner around the table asking all 12 people if it looks like real meat to them. I have never suggested, or pressured her to try meat, and I am the only family member who makes sure a family get-together has things she can eat. Never-the-less, she is ALWAYS pressuring me to give up meat. I respect your lifestyle and I bet you respect my right to disagree, but my only person-to person experience with a vegetarian is undeniably a hypocrite and it colors my thinking on the subject. Tell me why I should think otherwise.
Ironically, I ended up here because I was searching vegetarian sites for recipes I could make that the meat-eating family members will enjoy, too. Sorry for the rant, but I got caught-up while looking for recipes as I’m a dreadful cook. (Meat or otherwise.)
“Tell me why I should think otherwise.”
You should think otherwise because we are not your sister.
Sorry about the fact that you probably didn’t find the recipe you were looking for. I don’t find recipes all that interesting so I do not post all that many. Check out vegalicious.com for oodles and oodles of solid veg dishes.
@Pjay-
I think I would have to agree with Soveg’s comment and say it looks like you have had a very bad experience with one vegetarian, which is unfortunate but really doesn’t paint us all with the same brush. He’s right in saying “we are not your sister [sister-in-law]”
As a general answer to another statement made about Vegan mothers starving their children I would have to disagree as well. Over the last three years I have made friends with many vegan parents and it seems to me they are all over-the-top when it comes to feeding their respective children and making sure that child has all he/she needs to grow and live active lives, just like any other child. Do they have to be a little more thoughtful in the choices they make for food? Absolutely, but I would never even consider their lifestyle harmful in any way to their kids.
If you have some evidence you would like to share to help us understand how you came to that conclusion? I’m sure you will find someone here who is willing to discuss that with you.
@Others-
For those of you who have made the claim that vegetarians have been “forcing” you to join their cause, or “forcing their preferences” on you, I question that. To me, when I am thinking of someone being “forced” into anything, I imagine someone going door to door with pamphlets in-hand trying to teach you the wisdom of their ways. Or else, someone in front of your house right now with a sign picketing your personal property in order to make sure you do what they want. Or even, someone being locked up and forced to do something they don’t want to or forced to participate in something clearly against their will.
If none of those things are happening then I think “forced” may be the wrong terminology. Stating one’s opinion and forcing someone to do something against their will are two entirely different things. So if by “forced” you actually mean “strongly stating an opinion” then yes…yes I would agree. On a site like Soveg’s you are going to get strongly stated opinions for and against vegetarianism, with that there can be no doubt, but being “forced” would be strong language indeed.
On that however, let’s look at who is being “forced” on the food side. Can you recall the last time you saw an advertisement about a meat product on TV or heard one on the radio? Pork’s latest-
“Pork! Now that’s BBQ!-Lip-smakin’ strongly encouraged!” or how about Beef?
“Beef! It’s what’s for dinner!”— Or how about chicken?
“Come see why our chicken is a favorite at your Superstore!” and “KFC-Finger lickin’ good!” (the last one is rather old I admit….but it’s still used)
These are all ads from the meat-industry/companies promoting meat products. They get a portion of their advertising dollar from us (in the form of support from the government subsidies and other food pyramid benefits). When was the last time you saw an ad about a particular vegetable? And how often do you see these ads if you do? Or even more prevalent, when was the last time you saw an ad promoting vegetarianism? Ever? Me either.
My point there was I don’t think it’s fair to say that we as vegetarians are pushing you towards that lifestyle. We can not force you to eat anything you don’t want to, and we are certainly in the minority when it comes to airtime in advertising this lifestyle.
So where can vegetarians promote this kind of lifestyle? This is a good place to start.
(sorry for the long post)
Pjay,
I’m sorry that your sister-in-law is such a poor example of a vegetarian. She is a huge hypocrite and she sounds like a bitch (sorry about the language). In my opinion, having an animal skinned alive sounds much worse than eating one. Any veg. with some self-respect would be completely against the use of animals to make clothes, shoes, car seats, etc. It’s just paradoxical to be against eating animals but all for wearing them.
I think that if you knew a vegetarian who had some respect for you and who wouldn’t act the way she does, maybe then you wouldn’t have such a bad impression of us.
:/
I just want to say that I haven’t ever pushed someone to become a vegetarian.
I’ve explained my views when asked, but when someone doesn’t want to change, you can’t make them.
However, I have been pushed to eat meat many times. People have made fun of me, shoved hamburgers in my face, and told me that my ideas were stupid and my facts were lies. My best friend’s father even told me that I couldn’t come over to their house anymore because I didn’t want to explain to him why I was a vegetarian. I was sick of telling people my reasons and then having them laughed at, and he said I was “being disrespectful.”
I know not all meat-eaters are like this, but I just want people who do things like that to know that it hurts. How would you like it if I said you were stupid for being the religion that you are? It’s not funny, and it’s not cool. :[
Glad to oblige on the evidence of vegan parents and vegan diets. Convictions occurred in Florida, Georgia, and New York. Here’s one link.
http://www.news4jax.com/news/13286030/detail.html
Adults can generally survive on a strict vegan diet, but babies and toddlers need far more fat and protein than they can get in a strictly vegan diet. Soy milk, in contrast to a soy-based baby formula, is very unsafe as a baby food and for babies under six months apple juice will likely produce diarrhea and thus dehydration. The recent Georgia case involved parents who also had had no prenatal care and no pediatric care for the child. Killing and eating 1,000,000 cows pales in comparison to this crime. You all keep saying you never push us to give up meat, but this is not my my experience and studies show that children on vegetarian diets (strict vegan diets are never acceptable for small children) are consistently smaller that children who are fed animal products–NOT healthier. Adults who eat meat in moderate quantities tend to be as healthy or healthier than their vegetarian and vegan counterparts. I am sorry you have been made fun of but I am tired of the hypocritical attitudes of the only vegetarians I have ever met. In fact, my point is that vegetarians complain all the time about the bad treatment they get but they give as much disrespect as they get. Since you are a smaller percentage of the population it only seems that you get more disrespect–the percentage is very close to the the same.
I live in a small town pop.380, and we don’t even lock out doors. Someone once pointed out to me that we have the same crime rate per capita as a nearby large city–we just have so few people it seems like less. The same applies to vegetarians and omnivores.
BTW, Kennedy– you are correct. In addition to being a hypocrite she is indeed a bitch. She is currently spending her spare time trying to find one of those extra-long bed mattresses for dorm rooms. Her 19 yeqr old will be going to college next year a her ‘baby’ is too good to sleep on a bed that someone else has slept on. I am positive this will get the kid horribly teased or worse. She and hers are better than the rest of us.
I’ve been a vegetarian since 1992 I became a vegan about five years ago. I’m an amateur figure competitor, and I’ve worked as a physical trainer when I have the time to devote to a client. My needs are definitely met on a vegan diet. Initially, I had to fight with my head trainer because he was hung up on that protein myth and did not think my needs could be met. I kept gaining muscle, and getting stronger so he left me alone. I subscribe to Muscle & Fitness magazine and for me it has been refreshing to see that they now point to non-animal products like vegetables & grains as an adequate source of protein. A few years ago I really wasn’t seeing that at all.
I have a four-year old daughter who is healthy and actually taller than most children her age. She’s always scored high with her height and the only time she has been sick is when she was given shots. She’s fairly bright. She started reading when she was three and knows simple addition and subtraction. She’s very athletic, and we play outside often. I know exactly what she is eating because I educated myself. I read a lot about nutrition. I’ve always been that way even before I was a vegetarian.
You can be healthy as a vegetarian or vegan (and yes that includes children.) You can also be extremely unhealthy depending on the food choices that you make. The same applies for non veggies depending on the choices you make will most likely determine your overall health. Here in the States we can look at the statitics and realize that many need a wakeup call when it comes to nutrition.
The American Heart Association, American Dietary Association, American Cancer Society, are a few organizations that have stated that a person can be healthy on a vegetarian or vegan diet depending on the person’s food choices. The same would apply for those that aren’t a vegetarian.
One thing I do find annoying about the media’s targeting vegetarian families is they don’t do the same when it happens to families that are non vegetarian. Those families don’t make the front page and if they do they don’t point out that this family killed their child following a non vegan diet. To me, that does nothing but adds to the fear and misinformation out there.
I don’t condemn or look down on people that eat or think differently than myself and that is obvious to my readers when they check out my websites. Knowing how much I dislike people making blanket statements of myself. I definitely don’t go around doing that to anyone else. To me that is hypocritical. Do I think I and my daughter am better because we are vegan? Absolutely not. If I had that type of attitude I do nothing but turn people off, and some people, unfortunately, will label an entire group based on the actions of a few. However, some people will tend to think of the negative things they have heard about a group and unfortunately won’t look at the positive I treat others how I want to be treated with respect.
I’ve always made healthy food choices even before my vegetarian days. I didn’t eat processed foods (prepackaged meals), no junk, sodas, the foods I prepared then, like now were whole foods. Sure it took a little more time to make but it was worth it and usually it was cheaper. The foods I made then, like now, were very simple to make and were on the table very quickly.
I rarely got sick before my pre-veggie days because of the choices I made. I have noticed an increase in energy since I went veggie. I was surprised because I did not think that was possible. I always made good sound nutritional choices and my parents did the same for my brother and me when we were growing up. I know that has played an important role with the food choices I make today.
I guess it is really difficult for some of the non-vegetarians, not all of them, to understand that the way the vegetarians feel about eating the meat is the same way most people feel about eating another human. I have been in situations where people really respect my decision to not eat meat while in other cases people have shown that my choice is a clear inconvenience to adjust to.
Also, like most vegetarians I have found myself explaining why I don’t eat meat to so many people so many times that I started to just dismiss such situations. Everyone has their own reasons and it feels nice if people just respect that.
it’s simple you all can understand this right?
TO EACH HIS OWN
and i’d eat human if the situation arose where it dictated whether i’d survive or not. ( you’d be suprised what any animal would do when face with the question live or die. the concept is basic enough that mitochondria get it.) and i’m not a cannibal you wierdo
Opal–Anytime parents starve their child to death it is news, or indeed kill it by any method. Sadly, it is NOT FRONT PAGE news in any case, INCLUDING this one. I agree wholeheartedly that “The American Heart Association, American Dietary Association, American Cancer Society, are a few organizations that have stated that a person can be healthy on a vegetarian or vegan diet depending on the person’s food choices. The same would apply for those that aren’t a vegetarian.” None of these agencies advocate strict vegan diets for babies and toddlers! I AGAIN assert that babies and toddlers cannot have their protein and FAT needs met on a STRICT vegan diet.
Putting protein aside for a minute and addressing fat. Vegetarian and vegan diets are naturally low in all fats. This is great for adults, but when children are growing it’s a very bad thing. Fats have almost twice the calories per unit weight as carbohydrates and proteins. Babies and toddlers need high fat foods to accomodate their need for a calorie rich diet to support their rapid growth. In the early days, say the first 3 ~ 6 months, it is possible that breast milk can support their needs, assuming mom can get her protein needs met in her diet. It is important to remember, though, not all mothers can (both my sister and my sister-in-law made heroic efforts to breastfeed and worked with lactation counselors and neither of them was able to breastfeed. Both of them had two children each who were unable to get enough to gain weight normally. Both had to switch to formula) breastfeed and the advantages of breastmilk (primarily to the immune system) can be achieved by breastmilk supplemented by formula in the first two weeks, and after that breastmilk has no real advantages over formula. (Except to vegans, because it is vegan.) Cow’s milk formula is best, but if a baby is intolerant or the mother prefers and her pediatrician is agreeable there are soy-based formulae but they are not vegan. REGULAR SOY MILK SHOULD NOT, I REPEAT NOT, EVER BE FED TO CHILDREN UNDER ONE YEAR OF AGE!!!!! A pediatrician should ALWAYS be consulted as per what diet is appropriate for your child. To do otherwise is child abuse. It is also VITAL for pregnant mothers get regular prenatal care and discuss how her new protein needs will be met during pregnancy. (The family in Georgia did not have any prenatal care and the baby had not been seen by a physician.) Doctors generally will refer these mothers to nutritionists who can assist them in keeping their lifestyle while assuring adequate nutrition during pregnancy. Opal, I’m glad your child is doing well but it proves nothing. Statistics tell us nothing as regards individuals. On the whole, vegetarian, and especially vegan, children still tend to be smaller than their omnivore counterparts.
Gee, Santosh, thanks for calling me a cannibal. Eating meat is not the same as eating people and you know it. You need to meet my sister-in-law. The two of you make me feel all warm and fuzzy about vegetarians. And in such a nicely worded way. And of course you have to explain. Many people have questions about vegetarians and vegetarianism. You should be happy to share something so important to you. I am handicapped due to fibromyalgia and walk with a cane. As I am only in my mid-fortys people are curious and I find I have to explain what fibromyalgia is and why I need the cane. Do I get tired of it? Sure. But I know they are just curious and that doesn’t mean they’re condemning me. The more I can help them understand the better. If you don’t care to discuss your vegetarianism, don’t. Politely say you don’t like to talk about it and suggest they try Google if they really want to know.
And, Mike–what to say to you. Yeah. I’m going to guess that you’re trying to imply that a simple part of a cell is smarter than those here. That’s childish, and it’s dumb.
A particularly gruesome film about what happens behind the scenes in the slaughter business is called Earthlings (google it in their video section). It’s 1.5 hours long and very disturbing so be prepared.
I’ve read through this entire conversation, and I have to say kudos to the well stated opinions and generally intelligent arguments.
I’m 15 and have been a vegetarian since I was 12. Being a vegetarian in both elementary school and high school, I understand all too well the cruelty and persecution that vegetarians can face from closed-minded people. However, I can also acknowledge times that I preached my ideals to an unwilling crowd, and possibly have been interpreted as pompous and riding on my high horse. But all in all, no matter what my personal opinion is, I believe that people deserve and have a right to have a choice and openly express and defend their opinion, as long as that opinion is not ignorant.
I sure that most you will agree with me that teenagers can be some of the cruelest and most ignorant people you can meet. However I too, and I’m sure that everyone - no matter their diet - is guilty of this from time to time. All I know for sure is that people need to respect each other and their choices, but everyone also has the right to defend their ideals and morals.
I hope that you understand what I’m getting at - I know I was rambling a bit! I also hope that I didn’t come off pompous - I didn’t intend to do that or offend anyone.
All in all, thanks for the though-provoking arguments!
@Pjay
I didn’t say you are a cannibal, I said you are NOT a cannibal.That is exactly the reason why it should offend you. I am open to giving my views on why I am a vegetarian if anybody wants to learn about it. However, most of the times, people have rebuked me. I am sure that has not been the case with your condition - people tend to sympathize when it is another human being that is in pain but not when there is any other creature in pain.
I have been a vegetarian since I was eight. I did not like meat even then and it was not because I was thinking about the environment or health (which are plus points anyway). The simple notion of eating flesh was offensive to me. More so because I love animals. Every time I see any form of animal cruelty, I tend to imagine what it would be like if I was in the exact same position. Those who had ever had dogs or cats, understand that animals have feelings too. When a dog wails, it is not because it is just another sound it can produce. It is because it feels pain. Just because it has limited ways of expressing its pain does not imply that it does not feel it. It only means that it is even at a greater disadvantage.
I never intend to sound sanctimonious. I am only expressing what I truly believe. Human have a choice of what they can eat, unlike some carnivores.
P.S. Please don’t compare me with your sister-in-law again. She does not sound like a very nice person - at least not from how you have portrayed her.
Pjay,
Let’s just say I rarely get into these discussions but you are making statements that are inaccurate…
Children on Vegan Diets
American Dietetic Association
Soymilk
I did not feed my daughter soymilk. She was breastfed. I rarely drink or consume soy. I personally don’t like it.
Fats
You can receive an adequate amount of fats on a vegan diet this can be derived from nuts & seeds (which are naturally high in fat) avocado, butters, margarine, oils such as olive oil or coconut oil, etc.,
The important thing is to be educated.
I disagree with you. The way the media presents information is skewed when a “regular child” dies and the question is their diet I have not seen the headlines “omni parents starved their children… Maybe they do? I just haven’t seen those headlines. I so see it happen when a family eats “differently” from the norm. It makes me question their motives…
As I’ve said before there is a lot of misinformation out there about vegetarian/vegan diets. Scratch that there is a lot of misinformation out there about what is a “healthy” diet.
The numbers don’t lie there are lot of unhealthy children out there that are eating a “standard diet” a lot of adults also. The standard diet that people eat now wasn’t the standard 40 or 50 years ago. There’s been a huge disconnect. We need to make better food choices. You can be healthy if you follow an animal based or a vegetable based diet. It’s all about the choices you make.
A few years ago I wrote an article about children on vegan diets. Whenever I made a statement I linked it to multiple sources. My articles came from mainstream organizations such as the ADA people were more inclined to believe info coming from a source they knew. Eventually I’ll write another one on the subject. That received a lot of feedback. It’s something I enjoy doing. I worked in health care/research for about five years.
Part of my outreach is educating people on making better food choices whether they are veggie or non-veggie. I think those within the medical field in some cases need to be educated also since many don’t have to take a lot of nutrition courses. Some of the people I have assisted have been able to get off medications. I didn’t do it they were at the point where they were willing to make changes and were willing to listen to something different than normal. They did not have to go veggie to see the changes but some did become vegetarian.
I’m back in school and should be receiving my degree in nutrition next year. I graduated with completely different degree in 1992, but I knew so much about nutrition it that it made sense to go back and get. Some people are more inclined to listen to what you have to say regarding food if you have a title behind your name and others don’t need that if they see improvements in their friends they are willing to take your advice.
Interesting discussion SoVeg.
I forgot to say I think some vegetarians eat entirely too much soy and meat alternative products. I strongly believe consuming too much of that lulls some into thinking they are eating healthy. I don’t think they are. I have a problem with veggie authors that lull their readers into a false sense of security when they make outlandish claims. I’ve ranted about that on my website also. People usually blame the diet when they get sick I always ask, “What were you eating?” In most cases their vegetarian (or vegan) choices were extremely unhealthy.
This is a very interesting discussion Opal! I’m half honored to be having it on my virgin blog.
I think I might be one of those lazy meat alternative eating, soy milk drinking vegetarians. It’s not like I have deep fried french fries with my veggie burger though. I always roast up some veggies on the BBQ or something. I’m slightly addicted to tofurky unsausages also, but I still don’t eat those that often. I probably get too much of my protein from soy. : /
Weew! Thanks for jumping on there Opal.
I have been debating delving into anything that even resembles numbers or facts as we all know it’s all about who’s behind the facts and what those numbers mean. So it’s hard to present in some of the discussion that way.
Also-Nutritionalism. Very hard to get into because there are far too many people that put their faith in food based on something they have learned about one specific nutrient (or in some cases a combination of them). I can’t agree more with you about the importance of eating healthy. I think if more people were aware of the kinds of foods (processed vs whole foods, meat vs plant-based, organic vs non-organic…etc.) they were putting into their mouths we would have much less health issues and the costs around those issues to deal with on a daily basis.
Yes…I agree, a very good discussion so far.
Saying that you feel about eating meat is like eating humans is suggetiong that I stop eating meat because it’s “like” cannibalism. I agree it is possible for adults, teens and preadolescents to get enough nutrition from vegan diets and for younger children (but above age one) to get enough from a vegetarian but NOT a strict vegan diet. The problem with toddlers and young children is that they need a lot of calories to support their rapid growth but they have little tiny tummies. A child’s stomach is about as big as it’s fist. Children need more fats than adults, because fats have almost twice the calories by weight as carbohydrates and proteins. Small children need calorie dense food, and, unfortunately most vegan diets are very low in fats. Opal, I am glad you don’t feed your child soy milk and it’s great you were able to breastfeed her, but, as I pointed out, neither my vegetarian sister-in-law nor my omnivore sister were able to successfully breastfeed. In both cases, despite assistance for several lactation counselors, both of them had children who were losing weight on only breastmilk. They were forced to supplement with formula, and formula is not vegan. That’s why the couple in Georgia were feeding their newborn soymilk. Soy-based formula is not strict vegan. Would you have chosen to feed your child non-vegan formula if she were starving on breastmilk alone? Because in both my sister and sister-in-law’s cases their babies were starving on only breastmilk. I’m willing to bet you would give your child ANYTHING if she were starving. Anything at all.
You are wrong about my fibromyalgia, also. People don’t understand how, why, and how much pain a fibromyalgia sufferer has and they usually tell me I couldn’t possibly have that much pain. Few people sympathize with fibro patients. When I was diagnosed more than ten years ago many doctors didn’t believe it existed because there were no tests at the time that could clinically demonstrate it. We were accused if being hypochondriacs and fakers. Now there are tests and doctors believe you when you say you are in constant unrelenting pain. You would think, then wouldn’t you, that now that they believe that you have constant pain they would prescribe pain medication for it, wouldn’t you? You’d be wrong. Unlike cancer patients (of which I may be one–I am waiting for results of a biopsy) who can get all the pain medication they need, fibromyalgia patients are told that the pain meds wouldn’t work for our pain (it is generated in the central nervous system) anyway. We, of course, know this isn’t true because we’ve all had pain meds after accidents and know it works just great for our fibro pain. You have suggested I don’t know enough about vegans to assert the things I do but you assert things abut fibromyalgia when you know nothng about it.
Why are vegetarians constantly being asked to justify their reasons? Every time I mention I am one, people ask me why like I’m somehow stuck up about it and they’re fishing me out. Well no, actually, I just don’t like meat.
weeellll, i’m all for non-vegetarians being really ridiculously defensive, but… well plants don’t have feelings, is the thing. it’s actually a known fact. read a biology book, we’re not the only ones that have feelings. plus it’s like a million times more efficient to grow crops than raise cattle and stuff, plus they cut down hella (yeah i’m from NorCal) trees to put cows in their place, and, you know… we don’t really NEED to eat meat anymore. we USED to need to eat meat, back in the day, when we were really primitive, but now it’s totally cool to just eat everything else. some of these individuals writing messages confuse me, because they’re super defensive of humans. don’t you realize that there are really WAY too many of us? we’re at about 6.5 billion right now, the earth’s carrying capacity is estimated around 10-15 billion. we could actually increase our carrying capacity by having a vegetarian-based diet, you know. this makes sense because of the amount of energy we each require on a meat-based diet (that is, the amount of energy it takes to produce the same number of calories that you consume). like i said it takes a lot more energy to raise beef than crops. the U.S. is already above its carrying capacity (6.2 ha per person–we’re at 8.4 ha per person–that is, of course, ha of productive land acres per person).
and the thing is, we just don’t NEED meat, really. it’s not like i go around trying to convert people to being vegetarians, but there’s nothing wrong with it. it’s not bad for you. in fact it can be very good for you if you eat well–better than eating meat. meat stays and rots in your colon for a hella long (beef, at least). did you know that? i’m just saying. it’s not really necessary to be huge assholes to the world, but we ARE, because apparently it tastes good and people can make good money off it. honestly i don’t really give a shit about how good it tastes or about a bunch of meat-packers’ industry. it’s just not worth it, is all. the proteins in soy products and kale and beans and corn are just as gooood. and delicious. i’m just saying. i don’t really give a shit if you want to eat meat or not, you’re supposed to be free to do whatever you want, but at the very least, please don’t eat endangered things.
Even broccoli screams when you rip it from the ground.
Special Note: Alex is a douchebag.
1) Plants are living
2) We are all born wit fangs for a reason
3) I am a VERY active human and need the diversity of proteins and fats from meats and animal products to stay healthy
4) Raw meat tastes good(use your appendix before it ruptures…hahah)
5) Eating strictly plant life does not save mammal, foul, or anything from our seas life…dont be naive
6) and finally…we are omnivores…when you dont eat meat, you WILL have to eat something that compensates for not following your bodies natural needs and chemistry.
That all said…who am i or ANY of you to dictate what someone should or shouldnt do with their life, body, or eating habits. Eating meat or not eating meat does not make you righteous.
…too much more to say but this will quickly turn into a rant…choose your freedom to do what you please…but when you try and impose it on others…there is no longer a freedom…good day fellow humans
Don’t listen to anybody else to make up your mind. Make a personal conscious choice to be vegetarian or not. There is no better or worse choices; they are just different. Feel good about your choice but keep it to yourself unless you’re forced to explain why you won’t eat something, in which case just say it’s personal.
Of course everybody has a choice for eating. But should they have a choice for killing too.
right on on the quote, or at least most of them. there’s one that’s just plain wrong:
”Wild animals never kill for sport. Man is the only one to whom the torture and death of his fellow creatures is amusing in itself.” - James A. Froude (1818-1894)
this is a man who obviously didn’t have a cat. cruelty and torture are not uniquely human, nor is indifference to the suffering of others. the wolf that rips open a deers belly and devours its intestines while the animal is still alive doesn’t give a damn about the deer’s pain and my cat thinks it’s great fun to torture and “play” with mice and small birds before finally killing them. Carnivores of all species are indifferent to the suffering of their food. humans who eat meat are no different from any other predator in that respect. The difference is that for the minority of humans who live in industrialized western nations a large percentage of meat eaters will never be directly involved in killing the animals they eat. and so often that indifference arises out of ignorance of what the production of the food they eat actually entails.
for me, the impetus to become a vegetarian didn’t have a damn thing to do with the cruelty of the meat industry. It’s about the fact that there are way too many humans on the planet right now for the large-scale consumption of meat and seafood to be sustainable. Our oceans have been over-fished beyond all limits and industrial meat production is an exercise in ecocide, as anyone who lives downstream from a slaughterhouse can tell you.
That said, I have absolutely no problem with folks who eat meat as long as it is actually sustainably raised. The problem is that the vast majority of meat available to the vast majority of people is not sustainable. And, given the number of people on this planet, it would probably be impossible to sustainably raise enough meat for everyone to eat.
as for the self-righteousness issue, it’s not self-righteous to tell someone that their behavior is destructive if that behavior is, in fact, destructive; nor is it self-righteous to personally refrain from participation in said destructive behavior. If someone was walking down the street giving cigarettes to toddlers and helping them light up most thinking people wouldn’t feel bad for telling them that what they are doing is wrong. The meat industry is no different.
It always amazes me how meat eaters think meat tastes so good, when in reality, they are not tasting the meat, but rather the salt and spices added to the meat. Anyone ever taste meat without salt, spices or various sauces? It’s pretty horrible.
Oh and another tidbit about meat is the various chemical additives, and hormones and vaccines given to the animal, which are now in your body after you devour the animals dead flesh. All in all, I can’t see how anyone isn’t a vegan or at least a vegetarian.
Hi,
I’m 26 years old and I’ve been a vegetarian for about 20 of them. And being around people who are on a staple diet of meat, I’ve learnt a few things. Firstly, all of them are beautiful people who really don’t mean any harm, atleast not consciously. And second of all, it is a vain attempt on our parts to try to convert them to vegetarianism. Before you raise your pitchforks at me :-), let me also add that I have never stopped trying. The people who savour meat don’t look at this bleak scenario the way we see it. For them meat is just like any other food. And I don’t blame them. We are all prisoners to our own mindsets. I am sure that once you’re exposed to how an animal is treated before it lands up in our friendly-neighbourhood supermarket or eventually on our plates, you will look at meat a little differently.
I am not against meat-eaters nor do I think that we vegetarians are the proverbial ‘nirvana-attained’ superior beings. What I am against is the blatant lies that are propogated to ensure that each bite of juicy chicken or veal doesn’t go down with generous helpings of guilt. It would be naive of us to say that our meat comes from animals that are bred for the sole purpose of being food. And hence they are alive because of us! So what do we expect them to do? Thank us? Be indebted to us? And feel blessed that their life has a just cause…and so does their blood-curdling deaths? I strongly feel that the moment we realise no one ever appointed us as God to take lives as and when we wish, we will no longer need to assert our position at the top of the food chain merely by eating meat. And lets face it, you and I, as vegetarians will definitely face a hell of an opposition because no one likes to see the truth displayed right in their face.
I loved most of the comments and views on this post especially those by Lauren, Jynax, Santosh and SoVeg… and I am so happy that there are so many who care. I believe that it’s not about us and the meat-eaters, it’s not about us and the planet, it’s not about us and our supremacy. It’s about our ability to feel compassion and know the difference between what’s cruel and what’s not.
from the arguments of the carnivores i would guess that there are a number of potential hannibals here. if human flesh tastes good then why not. as horatio said if god did not want him to eat meat he would not have them tasting so good.
BTW what is the biological difference between a mammal and a human. (not the mind mind it) that a carnivore can justify eating certain meats and balk at tribes practising cannibalism for generations.
I’m an on-and-off vegetarian (not a vegan), so it goes with out saying I eat meat, but only because i enjoy it (and it DOES have benefits) plus I’m Cuban and any cuban that says they don’t enjoy the lechon on Christmas Eve is lying. I go every other month on and off the vegetarian diet for health, animal and every other reason.
What i dont get is everyone being so sensitive - most vegetarians probably weren’t born a vegetarian so at one point you did eat meat and chances are you enjoyed it a whole lot! and meat eaters always saying that they LOVE meat and that they’ll never change their minds blah blah blah, grow up.
Here’s a question for fellow meat eaters…..You love your meat, right? Mostly because it taste so good, I mean just the thought of a rare, juicy, thick sliced porter house steak sitting over an open fire grill probably makes your mouth water, right? What if humans tasted as good if not better. Would you eat human meat? Ok, ok, humans have rights, big brains, etc. But if we just ate horrible humans or those on death row like murderers, rapers, etc. But also we fed them and kept healthy just like we “say” we do with our cattle. Would that justify it? Would you eat your own kind?
Let me start that I am surrounded by vegitarians and vegans, in fact I often have to base my cooking around this fact (i date a vegitarian that lives with vegans). so often enough the question of motivation arises behind lifestyle choices, and often enough i hear the same arguments made above. obviously there are health benefits to LIMITING ones consumption of meat products, but i have a few obsevations that continually plague my mind when considering a full conversion to being a vegitarian.
1) if humans were not intended to eat meat (or if health issues are your main motivation) then why is it that all vegitarians I know have to take supplements and vitamins to maintain this “healthy” lifestyle. it seems to me that on a basis of living naturally, that meat should be included in ones diet, but in complete moderation, to provide essential elements of a healthy diet. i would actually like to know if there are certain choices that could be included in my diet to prevent this if i did convert?
2) If animal rights or the environment are your concern (as it seems to be most peoples motivation), then understand the power of the dollar. By researching products, it is easy to buy meat products from farms that use completely organic compounds to raise livestock, and treat them in a humane way. By paying the extra two dollars for organic products you make the same statement as not buying meat at all, ” i do not approve of this product so thus you do not get my money”. alternatives to the typical mass production chicken (as an example) plants appear more and more often every time i go to the gorcery store. from the above comments it seems obvious to me that the concern is not eating meat itself, but the life the meat had before you eat it. the scenario i often give to vegitarians is this…if stranded on an island and faced with having to survive off your own ability, will you continue to eat nothing but plants. most conceed that inevitably, plants will be the primary source of intake (due to availabilty and the fact they cant run away) but that they would indeed due their best to catch fish. thus the story of most humans, hunter/gatherers.
It just seems to me that a largely vegetable diet supplemented by meat is the most natural choice.
If you harvest the entire plant, you are killing something. I’m all for humane treatment of our fellow creatures. But, human beings are part of the food chain.
Why are most of these comments about arguing or persuasion? If you choose to be one way, then feel content within your decision.
Respect others beliefs, I don’t understand why everyone is so sensitive to others’ opinions. Or why people are always trying to justify or force their opinions on others.
It is pretty damn incredible that I just read someone’s statement that read “Not simply refraining from eating meat which nourishes our bodies in a good way”. Sorry to be the harbinger of grim news contrary to you misinformed fantasy, but people are not genetically designed to properly process meat. This is an indisputable fact. Compare humans to the carnivores, the omnivores & to the herbivores in the “animal kingdom”. Our design, including the digestive tract has many times more in common with the herbivores than the other 2 groups. Look it up. Also. the hospitals are full of MANY people who would not be there if they didn’t eat meat. And it’s amazing to think that anyone would truly believe that “but plants are living things too” is a valid argument for eating animals. Listen to yourself. Don’t embarrass yourself with such pointless & empty “arguments”. Vegetarianism = people and animals living longer and healthier lives. Not to mention the meat industry is a blight on the planet. If you disagree you’re only fooling yourself.
About Docs comment: No, we don’t have “fangs”. A carnivores canine teeth extend significantly beyond the other teeth. Ours do not. And our canines aren’t anywhere approaching being nearly as sharp. If you think that our canines are for tearing meat, you need to take another look. And once again. People do not ever require animal flesh in their diet. That is one of the most absurd arguments someone can come up with. Not to mention the meat at the grocery store has many times more pesticides in it than plant foods do, and only scavengers (vultures, etc.) eat things they find dead. Such as the selection at your local grocery store. Perhaps you should do some reading next time before you give out your so-called facts.
Do plants have feelings? i mean you say its wrong to eat another living thing but how can you be sure of what has feelings and what doesnt?
Ed Smith, you seem to be informed enough to provide me with some answers about a healthy veg diet. please read my comment a couple up from this one and address.
Hey, awesome debate. I have to get back to work, so I read everything carefully up to about 2/3 the way down. So if someone already addressed this in the final third, I apologize. But so far I have not seen it.
Both vegetarians and meat eaters here have been referring to respecting personal choices, lifestyle choices, different ways of life, etc. Meat eaters are asking: I respect your choice to not eat meat. Why can’t you respect my choice to eat meat?
Here is the answer to your question:
I’ve actually had the experience of living in an apartment sharing a wall with people who beat their children, and I heard the children screaming almost every other day. When I called the police to intervene, they told me I should mind my own business. I think the difference in their view of it, and mine, was that they thought that a choice that severely affected other conscious beings that feel pain was a matter of personal preference or taste, like what color to paint one’s walls. Yes, it is your own house (or apartment, if you like); yes, you can decorate it however you will (if the landlord lets you). That is a decision that doesn’t cause extreme amounts of pain (unless you’re really tacky). No matter how you decorate your place, we won’t tell you it should have been a different color or a different type of lamp. If, however, you rape people or abuse your children or support an industry that UNNATURALLY breeds (in most cases, while we’re at it, rapes), neglects, poisons, allows the abuse of, outright tortures, and inhumanely kills, we will tell you about it, because most people have no idea that their consumption of meat supports these things. I, for one, was extremely grateful to find out, when I decided, as a meat eater, that I should know if my “lifestyle choice” was a moral or amoral (indifferent) one.
Even if you like meat and meat products, I think it’s important that you know what effects your consumption of them has on your health, the animals, and our planet, whose well-being we depend on for our very lives.
Meetyourmeat dot com - there’s a video there that takes about a minute and a half to watch. There are so many more out there like it, and books with interviews of factory farm workers, and all of it. It’s a very true-to-life portrayal of the unnatural processes in which animals, believed by meat eaters to be part of a natural cycle, actually are “raised” and killed.
If you still want to eat meat, even knowing how incredibly evilly the factory farming industry treats these animals who never hurt anyone, don’t believe that free range, cage-free and organic are any kinder to them. They aren’t. Well, cage-free might be, only minimally. But even cage-free chickens can be molted, crowded, de-beaked, bled to death, etc. and their male chicks are still ground up while alive and fully conscious or suffocated in the trash.
So now, for reasons like this, and my health, and justice for all people, and to help better the planet, I’m vegan, and my unborn child is and will continue to be, too, and a very happy and healthy one at that!
Oh, by the way, vegans don’t kill their babies by way of their diet unless they feed them diets consisting entirely of apple juice and soymilk. Veganism doesn’t kill babies. If it did, FORMULA would be outlawed!!!
Ooh. I forgot to finish that thought: if you want to keep on eating meat knowing about the holocaust of torture that animals are going through for meat, then please consider reducing your consumption of meat. Reducing your consumption by half saves, on average, 50 animals’ lives per year. Every person who reduces meat consumption reduces the demand for animal factory farming.
You can stop the scalding to death of chickens and turkeys when they get dunked into boiling water while still alive and fully conscious.
You can stop the skinning and dismemberment of living, conscious pigs and cows who missed the stunning bolt.
You can stop the transport of animals through all extremes of weather, their hides frozen stuck to the sides of the trucks, only to be cut away by workers to “move them along”
You can stop the unanesthetized castration of baby male pigs, squealing in so much helpless agony that it would break your heart if you heard it.
And by the way: eating meat and meat products is the leading cause of IMPOTENCE. I’m completely serious! It’s all about the cholesterol. If those arteries and vessels get blocked and that blood can’t make its way down…well, you get the idea. For those meat eaters that are suffering impotence, eat a healthy, whole-foods, plant-based diet for two weeks and see how vast the change is.
Had to reply to Doc (comment #125–Sep 25)…
1) Difference between living, as a plant, and being obviously moving and breathing and having a nervous system much?
2) Panda bears and gorillas are born with much bigger “fangs” than humans, yet they live on plants. They eat so little animal food, if any at all, that it could not possibly account for how much more active and muscular they are than meat-eating people, even though they have digestive tracts similar to ours, and unlike the multi-chambered stomachs of the muscular and active hoofed grazing animals.
3) Plants commonly, naturally available all over the globe, that have been cultivated since ancient times, have plenty of the fats and proteins you need. It is only in the last century that people have begun to eat so much meat in the industrialized nations. As they have, the rates of chronic disease have skyrocketed. As other nations adopt modern healthcare, but *without* all the meat-eating that is part of this culture, their average lifespans have begun to significantly surpass ours. But it’s not just genes, because as soon as they adopt a diet that gets more than 5% of its protein from animal sources, their lifespan and chronic disease rates skew to match ours.
4) Human blood and human flesh taste good to those who have acquired a taste for it, too. In fact, survivors of strandings who were forced to eat their companions who had died in order to survive describe always having a craving for human flesh afterward that in some cases made them wish or almost wish that they hadn’t survived. But such cravings can be overcome with proper nutrition. I know, I used to eat and love meat and other animal food, too.
5) True, it’s possible to be vegan and still be irresponsible with the effects that the manner in which the food is produced has. But on the other hand, simply the cataclysmic difference between the amount of water consumed by animal husbandry and that to just sustain humans and their food plants is enough to profoundly affect the health of the natural world. If you don’t recognize that, who’s being naive here?
6) We are designed to be *able* to eat meat in an emergency, when other food isn’t available. I would certainly do so if my survival required it.
I am not trying to force anyone into a corner or force them to eat a certain way… but I *am* sick of paying outrageous health insurance rates that are not likely warranted in my case. I believe that what would be fair, is if just as they already do with life insurance, people could qualify for lower health insurance rates if their blood cholesterol and inflammatory markers are below certain levels– cholesterol and inflammatory markers being sure signs of animal protein consumption.
I don’t think less of you because of being attached to eating meat. I didn’t grow up where you grew up, I’m not in your shoes. I just hope to open a door to understanding here, so that you do not continue to be deceived into thinking all those reasons are based on facts and logic, and you take all this into account in your continuing dietary decisions.
I highly recommend reading “The China Study” by T. Colin Campbell, a man who grew up on a cattle farm and grew up to be a director of studies for the Centers for Disease Control. It was through researching cancer that he happened upon the deleterious effects of animal protein that have been mostly kept out of view until recently. In the 70’s he launched the biggest and longest study of diet and nutrition that has ever been undertaken, and it is still ongoing, and the results are still consistent. Assuming a well-balanced diet, the less animal protein, the better for your health–all the way down to zero.
I have had people ask me, my family especially, why I am a vegetarian, so here goes. I am a vegetarian because I have empathy for all living, breathing, thinking, and feeling creatures. Also, there are many health benefits to a vegetarian diet. It decreases your chance of heart disease, obesity and other related conditions. The fat that you do consume is more likely to be the good (ie unsaturated) kind as well, Also, if you are vegan you won’t be eating any cholesterol at all! The increase in fiber intake also means you are less likely to develop problems with your digestive system. Most notably, you will have a much lower risk of colon cancer. You are also less likely to be deficient in most nutrients and vitamins, since you should be eating more fruits and vegetables.
I just came across this thread and….wow.
Yes, I am vegan. Yes it is so clear to me why one would want such a life.
But in the end I hope to gently remind everyone that we can lead better examples with our forks that with our mouths.
Horatio, where have you been? Missing your comments!!!
Quote: “Horatio, where have you been? Missing your comments!!!” by bharat
He’s lost of words…
I, too, love how cocky we can be -as I am about to demonstrate. It’s really not anything you can argue against. Here’s the 4 possible positions, and you are one of them.
Either you enjoy hurting animals or you do not. That’s 2 positions.
The 3rd position: You choose to look away; ignorant and happy like a cow in a field. You choose not to see animals being torn apart, alive, screaming, by well meaning people who are also being slowly destroyed by the job they picked up for a low wage. The hunger created by feeding animals instead of feeding hungry humans. You choose to ignore the horrors of environmental destruction. You order veal and love how it tastes, but you couldn’t stomach how it’s created -so you look away.
There is a 4th position, that of the knowledgeable unapologetic carnivore who has raised, cleaned, and eaten his or her own animals. I have nothing against you. Its at least informed.
Good Luck.
i am a vegitarian and i feel like meat eaters are scared to be different. they are scared that people will judge them. being a vegitarian yes i am judged every day, but i just laugh in there faces,because it is me who has the healthyer lifestyle.
Each cow on this planet can produce up to 500 litres of methane PER DAY. It is a gas 23 times more potent than carbon dioxide when it comes to global warming. In addition a massive 20,000 square miles a YEAR of the Amazon ALONE is disappearing to allow companies space to graze cattle (and also to get more money for the timber companies and the short sighted governments who are mortgaging the future).
Let’s not argue about whether or not a cow is a sentient being. But let’s try and keep this planet for the next few generations that come along. Sticking your heads in the sand about this issue won’t solve the problem and nor will arguing about it on an online forum. It starts with every individual on this planet taking responsibility for what it grows, brings into the world, buys, discards and uses on a daily basis.
Vegetarian or not, we all have to live on this planet and we all have to take responsibility, and if it starts with cutting down on eating a few cows then I sure as hell am not going to argue about it.
I’ve been a vegan for a year now. I go to middle school and i liked not many people knowing that i am one because middle school kids are @$$holes! whenever someone finds out they typically start going “I LOVE meat”, “I would die w/o meat”, “I love cow” and crap like that and i just ignore them or say i don’t care what they eat or think and leave me alone. people nickname me: veganboy, vegan, vegankid, veganman, veg-o, veganosaurous, and etc. When my friends relize how much i get made fun of they are amazed that i haven’t unleashed my built up fury…..
so mock me as you like but i’m never eating meat. ever.
(Plants may be living but as i’ve heard: No brain, no pain. (plants have no brains, animals do, so technically plants really cannot feel pain….)
Martha
Your site looks great! I have seen many other so-called sites and they have been far from good quality.Your site has all the key ingredients to pulling in visitors.
Cat Dealey
I Googled for something completely different, but found your page…and have to say thanks. nice read.
Wow….
Very nice!
In fact, “I’m a vegetarian because I hate plants” LOL